So thanks to Jasmine, we know confidently that there is no movement in K4 of Kryptos, at all.
-Her message and emails reposted with permission after removing email addresses and last names, I included some dashes to break the messages apart a little-
Hi Kryptosfan, I’ve been slogging away at Kryptos for a couple months without much luck. Last May I’d noticed that people were still considering transposition as the 1st or 2nd component of K4 even though the NY Times article said that NYPVTT=BERLIN. I had thought maybe I was misunderstanding the clue so I had emailed the NY Times author and James Sanborn for clarification. Then I sort of forgot about the email until cleaning out my inbox recently. I included my last response to Mr. Sanborn which he never responded to so I think it’s fair to say that transposition is out for K4.
-Jasmine
——————————————————————————————————–
Okayyyy… I haven’t followed all of her links but it says pretty clearly on her website that NYPVTT becomes BERLIN which rules out my idea that things were moved around.
Thank you so much for getting back to me! It looks like she has a lot of info on her site but also links to other people’s sites and news. I’m a little discouraged there are so many other folks are already so far ahead but I think I’ll poke around a little and see if I can maybe see something they’ve been missing. Worth a shot!
Have a great rest of the weekend!
-Jas
From: -Sanborn’s email from his art website-
Subject: Re: Just a quick tiny clarification about NY Times article?
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 15:57:21 -0400
To: -removed to keep her inbox empty-
see Elonka Dunins Kryptos website, best, j
——————————————————————————————————————
On May 25, 2013, at 3:36 PM, Jasmine B- wrote:
I asked John Schwartz but he said he never clarified the difference.In the November 20th, 2010 article in the NY Times (which was awesome!), is the clue to the fourth part that the 64th-69th letters in the message are BERLIN or that the letters NYPVTT (#64-69) become BERLIN?Sorry to bug you on the weekend but the weather here is terrible and everyone is busy so I thought I’d dig into this whole Kryptos mystery a little. Looks like I’m a couple of years behind everyone else so I’m playing catchup. I’m a big Jennifer Garner fan (she’s awesome!) and have been re-watching old ALIAS episodes on my netflix account and re-visiting fan message boards and kind of stumbled into your sculpture (random right?). She’s gotten me back into running – seems like every episode has her jogging through a mission but I don’t think I can do the wigs – and since I will never actually work for the CIA it seemed like fun to try and solve their mysterious message. Okkkk, so it’s a little escapist but I don’t plan on actually telling anyone what I’m working on (keeping secrets already…). I haven’t read a Nancy Drew for probably twenty years but it’s kind of the same feeling of trying to crack the mystery. I almost need a wrinkled suit, trenchcoat and gross cigar and be all Bogart with the black and white (or was that Columbo?). You should probably re-read my question but imagine we’re in a movie and I have that awesome accent. I’m rambling, should probably cut it short! It probably sounds dumb for a girl to be trying but I’m going to anyways – wish me luck!Oh and have an amazing weekend! I know for some folks it’s sad but it’s always meant barbecues to me, weird right?
-Jas
—————————————————————————————–
Thanks very much! I’m really looking forward to being able to write the story when this puzzle is finally cracked!
John
On May 24, 2013, at 3:40 PM, Jasmine B- <email removed> wrote:
Thank you for responding and so quickly. =)
In case no one has said it before, you’re a good guy John and there’s at least one more person out there who really appreciates you. Thank you.
I’m off to consider things a little more. Have a good holiday weekend!
-Jas
From: jswatz-at-nytimes-dot-com
To: -email removed-
Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 15:12:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Just a tiny clarification request?
thanks for your note.
I do not believe that we discussed that possible distinction.
Best wishes,
John Schwartz
———————————————————————————————
On May 24, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Jasmine B- <email removed> wrote:
Hi John! I promise it’ll be quick, I’m sure you’re super busy.
In the article from November 20th, 2010: “A Crack In The Code Kryptos Is Keeping”, did Sanborn specifically say that the 64th-69th letters in the final text are BERLIN or that the letters NYPVTT (#64-69) are BERLIN?
The only reason I ask are that the difference would mean dramatically different possibilities for efforts at deciphering it (i.e. transposition vs. substitution).
Thank you!
Jasmine Baenver
—————————————————————————————————
What this means is that there is no transposition at all in K4, not after or before an additive. Which sucks for me because that was my fondly held idea for what it was. So this means that the two pieces to K4 are solely substitution effects.
I suppose it’s nice having confirmation of a sorts. Yes, he could be playing it cagey to not release too many details but Elonka’s site doesn’t mention letter numbers of the message being BERLIN but that the actual CT letters NYPVTT are BERLIN. If I remember rightly, he said something similar in the post-presentation talks after an ACA talk that Ed Scheidt gave last year.
So just to clarify, no transposition in K4. At least almost pretty absolutely mostly sure there isn’t.
Kryptos - Beyond K4 
There is potential for confusion on this point. To avoid it, we must separate co-linearity from transposition. By that I mean there is the question as to whether the letters NYPVTT are co-linear with BERLIN. There is a second, unrelated question, regarding whether transposition is required during decryption.
The answer to the co-linearity question has already been answered in this forum (and the answer is yes, the letters of NYPVTT correspond directly to BERLIN)
Here is the verbatim excerpt from this forum that answers this- (sorry I couldn’t get a direct link but maybe KryptosFan can edit to add it)-
”
———————————————————————-
Kryptos Notes From the ACA Convention
Filed under: Uncategorized — 6 Comments
October 28, 2013
It was asked if N decodes to B, Y decodes to E, etc, etc. and Jim confirmed it does. Emphatically.
Jim Sanborn rattled through the entire crib:
N = B,
Y = E,
P = R,
V = L,
T = I,
T = N
———————————————————————-
”
The second question, as to whether transposition forms part of the deciphering is not answered. The absence of any identifiable key containing the required continuous segment ELYOIE needed to decipher NYPVTT to BERLIN suggests transposition to be a likely component.
In case the distinction between the co-linearity and transposition questions is not clear, I can give you an example:
I can transpose K4 in such a way that many key words can decipher the NYPVTT individual letters to BERLIN (specifically N to B, Y to E, P to R, V to L, T to I and T to N). The letters at this point are no longer contiguous but a second transposition restores them to read BERLIN. I have around 500 words that contain the letters ELYOIE (out of the required order) and potentially any of them can decode NYPVTT to BERLIN with suitable transpositions either side of the Vigenere step (HIEROGLYPH/S/IC/ICS being the more attractive given the theme of K3).
To summarise, don’t give up on transpostion, it is most likely required. If the report of the ACA convention on this forum is accurate however, we can safely assume that N maps to B and so on for the NYPVTT-BERLIN crib. The co-linearity of NYPVTT to BERLIN does not imply transposition is not required during decryption.
“NYPVTT does not equal BERLIN”. See my deciphered message posted on this site. Thank you.
There is a distinct chance that transposition is used on a segment of known text to generate the key/pad. In general I’ve noticed that the keyed vigenere produces stronger Friedman IC/ kappa-plaintext values the closer the key gets to Sanborn’s alphabet. In fact most of the pads that I’ve generated that match the expected letter/digraph distribution when dragged averaged around 1.3 for the IC, and .045 for the KP. Not perfect by any means, but considering that most randomly generated pads produce an average IC of around 1 and KP of about .033, and K1-3 produce around a 1.7 IC and .066 KP that’s significant. Even only considering letter distribution seems to raise the values by a few points.
Some observations:
1. While Sanborn has stated that NYPVTT decodes to BERLIN, it’s worth noting that he hasn’t distinguished weather it’s plaintext or keytext… technically plaintext and ciphertext can decode keytext.
2. Most of the previous clues Jim released have pertained to mistakes or purposeful alterations to the text i.e. the extra L, xLAYERTWO, the Times attachement was released with reference to questions on typos. Who’s to say that this clue isn’t the same case… Sanborn, but he hasn’t.
3. The digraph frequencies of the plaintexts are quite a bit higher than that of standard English.
There are roughly 4 times the expected THs. While I know that Sanborn has stated that knowing the solutions of K1-3 are not required to solve K4, I do recall that Scheidt stated that the first three sections give you the alphabets.
4. Considering that steganograpy is statedly used likely means that the primary decryption wont have as high of a IC/KP since most cryptanalysts state that steganography comes most often before encryption.
5. KryptosFan has the best links.
Okay but how do you get 26 UNIQUE characters? THAT”S THE PROBLEM! No matter what form of encryption that you use the likelyhood of ending up with at ciphertext that uses every letter in the alphabet is diminishes with a smaller plaintext. Yeah it’s possible but not likely. I’ve spent weeks trying to figure out how you can take 97 characters of dummy text and encrypt it any way you like and end up with 26 unique characters. Even if the original message used all 26 letters of the alphabet you are still at about a 1 in 10 chance of getting a ciphertext that uses all 26… Then figure that this probably uses at least 2 encryption methods and those odds drop even further. And as far as that stenography bit goes, you gotta take that with a grain of salt. Sanborn didn’t say stenography he said “STENO” which may be a reference to Nicolas Steno, they guy that gave us the laws of superposition and how to read strata of rock formations. Remember, Sandborn is an artist by trade but he is a trained archaeologist.
BEGIN QUOTATION
From Wiki:”Superposition as modified by archaeological considerations:
Superposition in archaeology and especially in stratification use during excavation is slightly different as the processes involved in laying down archaeological strata are somewhat different from geological processes. Man made intrusions and activity in the archaeological record need not form chronologically from top to bottom or be deformed from the horizontal as natural strata are by equivalent processes. Some archaeological strata (often termed as contexts or layers) are created by undercutting previous strata. An example would be that the silt backfill of an underground drain would form some time after the ground immediately above it. Other examples of non vertical superposition would be modifications to standing structures such as the creation of new doors and windows in a wall. Superposition in archaeology requires a degree of interpretation to correctly identify chronological sequences and in this sense superposition in archaeology is more dynamic and multi- dimensional.
END QUOTATION
You can’t assume a specific nuance of a word. you ought to consider them all at the same time. A good example of this is PALIMPSEST. For some reason everyone is anchored in one specific nuance referring to a ancient scrolls and they totally ignore the fact that it is used in a variety of disciplines, notably architectural archaeology and geomorphology – both of which have more relation to the sculpture than scraped off scroll.
Except he said stego, not steno
Thanks for your input Chris. I appreciate your thoughtfulness on the issue.
Here are some things I’d ask you to consider.
1. I said a known text, not a known plaintext.
2. I agree that the likelyhood of finding a plaintext which exhibits an alphabet that produces such a low IC upon encryption is poor. However, polyalphabetic substitution, in general, equalizes a distribution as opposed to thinning it out. Encrypting a dummy text has yielded me several cases of 26 character distribution almost to my foment, as I’m more likely looking for an alphabet of around 21 characters.
3. There are several quotes from both Jim and Ed pertaining to steganography.
4. All I’m suggesting is that transposition doesn’t solely have to apply to plaintext.
These points aside… I like that you’re looking through a broad lens. I especially like your excerpt.
Stay the course.
I must agree with DaveP – There are ways of using transposition while keeping the text of NYPVTT together. I you wish, I can send you a pdf that describes one such method where one can get ELYOIE from a VERY simple transposition of K3. It involves transpositioning K3 in the form of a EM (electromagnetic) Ray. From there you can use that part of K3 as a pad for NYPVTT and the rest of K4.
For Example – just a guess (Oh for a love of Courier Font):
Take K3 and lay it out in 7 rows by 48 columns. Then take the last 24 columns and reverse them i.e. column 1 is now column 24:
L L S L L S D L U Y E R N T H C A I A N H S Y D
T M W E A C A I I P L B E L E N N L S E P R A R
Y E T Y O I E A H N E W I T D E S L O F T E O E
S A O F E E T B L R E E Y G E T A M A T A N E W
A O R E I P W E T S M T T H A A I N D D E S B I
H E L M L K R T I R O L D Y R D D S O A E O G E
W H O D V T R T T S S L N H E M I E F P I R M D
Use a EM Wave or EM RAY transform (END YAHR clue):
L L S L U Y E C A I A D
T M W I I P L N N L S R
Y E T A H N E E S L O E
S A O L L S D B L R E R N T H T A M A N H S Y W
A O R E A C A E T S M B E L E A I N D E P R A I
H E L Y O I E T I R O W I T D D D S O F T E O E
W H O F E E T T T S S E Y G E M I E F T A N E D
E I P W T T H A D E S B
M L K R L D Y R A E O G
D V T R L N H E P I R M
Collapse (rap around) the wave like so:
1 L L S E I P W L U Y E T T H A C A I A D E S B D
2 T M W M L K R I I P L L D Y R N N L S A E O G R
3 Y E T D V T R A H N E L N H E E S L O P I R M E
4 S A O L L S D B L R E R N T H T A M A N H S Y W
5 A O R E A C A E T S M B E L E A I N D E P R A I
6 H E L Y O I E T I R O W I T D D D S O F T E O E
7 W H O F E E T T T S S E Y G E M I E F T A N E D
Lay out the rows like
R5-R1
R6-R2
R7-R3
A OREACAETSMBELEAINDEPRAI LLSEIPWLUYETTHACAIADESB D
H ELYOIETIROWITDDDSOFTEOE TMWMLKRIIPLLDYRNNLSAEOG R
W HOFEETTTSSEYGEMIEFTANED YETDVTRAHNELNHEESLOPIRM E
Note the end column characters “DREW H” – so draw (mask) the letter H on this pad (sideways – denoted by ‘_’ replacing the letters of the H):
– OREACAETSMBELE ——— ——– UYETTHACAIADESB –
– ELYOIETIROWITDDDSOFT— — MLKRIIPLLDYRNNLSAEOG –
– HOFEETTTSSEYGE ——— ——— NELNHEESLOPIRM –
The H mask forms the negative space of the pad: now transpose K4 like:
ATJKLUDIAWINFB ——— ——— OBKRUOXOGHULBSO
NYPVTTMZFPKWGDKZXTJC — — LIFBBWFLRVQQPRNGKSSO
DIGKUHUAUEKCAR ——— ——— TWTQSJQSSEKZZW
Kryptos Vigenere cipher and decrypt:
YPONBHZEROABUW ——— ——— DSIWLLLVSZHAWKW
BERLINHDEXPBCKJIMZTO — — ZXFANBCKDFMNDBYANURM
VDRIDDLPIOIAQJ ——— ——— EFGRMOCKISWDXO
Rearrange the Plain text as so (just an order swap) – a some what readable message
DSIWLLLVSZHAWKW YPONBHZEROABUW
ZXFANBCKDFMNDBYANURM BERLINHDEXPBCKJIMZTO
EFGRMOCKISWDXO VDRIDDLPIOIAQJ
Guess a couple of misspellings and –
D, SIS LLL VS O-H AWK WYE ON BH ZERO A BUZZ X
FAN B CDQ FIND BY ANORM BERLIN HD EXP BCK JIM S
T REF, GS MARK IS WD X
ODD RIDDLE IO IS Q J
Misspelling Letters : SO EZ Q IO’S RSA R DES
There is an example of some transposition in one time pad; i.e. K3 transposition and visual mask – followed by K4 transposition and Vigenere decryption – and then some misspellings
WOW – your comment editor doesn’t like extra spaces
Again Use a EM Wave or EM RAY transform (END YAHR clue):
L L S ———– L U YE ———–C A I A ————-D
T M W ———–I I P L ————N N L S ————-R
Y E T ———- A H N E———– E S L O ————E
S A O L L S D B L R E R N T H T A M A N H S Y W
A O R E A C A E T S M B E L E A I N D E P R A I
H E L Y O I E T I R O W I T D D D S O F T E O E
W H O F E E T T T S S E Y G E M I E F T A N E D
———E I P W————T T H A————D E S B
———M L K R————L D Y R————A E O G
———D V T R————L N H E————P I R M
Oh well I tried.
And that should read “…FAN B CQD FIND…”
I can’t ever get misspellings correct!
I have deciphered Kryptos Fourth Code. It reads, ” NEAR ROUND DINNER BELL IN BETWEEN NORTHWEST BARRACKS ROW ALL INSIDE NSA LIMITS AND ALL VANN KNOWS ABOUT WE KNOW TOO CROSS ASKEW NORTHWEST CROSS AND YOU SALUTE A ROSE IN VALOR”. John Paul Vann said that during the Vietnam War, Phoenix Operations Project one-half those VC listed as killed were included to meet Phoenix Goals. He said that they were “Post Facto”, Identification. Yours truly,
Rick A. Roberts
Now that I have some time to think – and
while some sort of solution becomes and
apparent,
how about a little Kryptos Poetry …
X
Bequeathed to US And for my
X LIZ n’ ANT BELL-NELLE,
ABCD…, U find the forth letter is D
in Kryptos – I find the Forth letter is P!
X
U SPY
Irk ye B
wait, eXpect
K ivy
Y HOPe X ShadXws Answer
X
And To
Those finders, who have carried it, on
one, two, three –
Dee Great, Great, Great,
Great ThanX and CongratulationZ!
PS: B – is for Berlin (isn’t that Golden) and K for Kryptos,
Now ya’ll don’t be shy in criticizing my poetry, direct writing welcome
I have thick skin!
Hone that knife
then hone it again
friendo
Huh??? Which part of that was written by Sanborn? Where does he confirm anything? All I see him saying is “Thanks very much! I’m really looking forward to being able to write the story when this puzzle is finally cracked!” Or was “Okayyyy… I haven’t followed all of her links but it says pretty clearly on her website that NYPVTT becomes BERLIN which rules out my idea that things were moved around. ” written by him? The complete lack of formatting makes this hard to follow.
Just a thought, but maybe you need to complete the square with part of #3
XCA NYO USE
EAN YTH ING
Q?O BKR UOX Etc.
Q? would give 9×11
XCA… would be 9×13
What I’m getting at is 9×12 could be 2 Rubik’s cubes? yikes!